Debate: Should Self-SurgeJet work on Land?

[MeskenasBoii]

At least a config option would do. We literally got waterarms grapple for that, and even though I want to nerf that too, I would much prefer scalling up walls rather skiing around the horizontal surfaces.

 

[Madocean]

At least a config option would do. We literally got waterarms grapple for that, and even though I want to nerf that too, I would much prefer scalling up walls rather skiing around the horizontal surfaces.

There's literally no reason to nerf grapple... All aspects of waterarms are completely configurable @_@

So first off theres actually n0 logical reason to remove this feature. You can spend hours telling me about canon. It's canon. By the laws of physics displayed in the show, it's OBVIOUSLY shown to be P O S S I B L E. Now, maybe it should be a tad more conditional, but to remove it is waaay too drastic. Alright so adressing the unidealistic notion that waterarms is a perfect substitute; that's so wrong .-. Surgejet is instant, it allows you to instantly return to source. This contrasted with arms; you have to get within CLOSE RANGE of a source and select it THEN scroll to grapple THEN use grapple .-. That adds like 2 seconds to the process, btw while you do all that in the 2 seconds you were doing so the airbender that airsuctioned, twistered or airstreamed you onto land gets 3 hearts on you. Not to mention they suctioned you farther inland with suctionswipe. The airbender gets to take shots as you crawl back to source possibly killing you before you reach it. All because you couldn't surge...

 

[MeskenasBoii]

You can spend hours telling me about canon. It's canon.

Evidence? I can claim that badgermoles can fly, because it's canon. You'll have to provide more than that.

By the laws of physics displayed in the show, it's OBVIOUSLY shown to be P O S S I B L E.

Can't agree or argue with that, because I lack of knowledge explaining how physics works. However, with most of people that I asked said SurgeJet is unrealistic and from the canon lore perspective: I never seen a waterbending pushing a straight 3 meter talls wall-shape water construct from themselves. Waterwave - yes I can see how's that possible, because numerious of waterbenders use that. One of the examples are when Katara created one to save Aang's life after he was struck by Azula's lighting and started to plummet down.

If you want to "surgejet", configure waterwave to have 0 chargetime and use that as a replacement.

There's literally no reason to nerf grapple... All aspects of waterarms are completely configurable @_@

So it is ok for waterbenders to be a race-car on land with waterbending, as If they were relying on mobility like an airbender? ok

 

[Madocean]

Evidence? I can claim that badgermoles can fly, because it's canon. You'll have to provide more than that.

Can't agree or argue with that, because I lack of knowledge explaining how physics works. However, with most of people that I asked said SurgeJet is unrealistic and from the canon lore perspective: I never seen a waterbending pushing a straight 3 meter talls wall-shape water construct from themselves. Waterwave - yes I can see how's that possible, because numerious of waterbenders use that. One of the examples are when Katara created one to save Aang's life after he was struck by Azula's lighting and started to plummet down.

If you want to "surgejet", configure waterwave to have 0 chargetime and use that as a replacement.

You're looking at the physics thing in terms of the "youre only sourcing one block" perspective, I'm not arguing that. Like MOST water moves should need more than a single source, its kind of obvious. Im trying to argue that surge itself could obviously push someone as thats literally what it was made for. If you can push other people with surge there's z e r o reasoning to say that you cant push yourself. If you want to imply that you MUST imply that surge should just be altogther removed. Remember this isn't a matter of canon or not it's a matter of how can we improve the actual gameplay mechanics... Firstly, the easiest way to conquer this whole "canon" bs is redesigning the animation for surge push, this way it can be 'canon' and useful. THAT is where the arguement should be anyways.

So it's ok for waterbenders to be a race-car on land with waterbending, as if they were relying on mobility like an airbender? ok

Every element relies on mobility .-. Waterarms grapple is configurable you can literally disable it... Also t h a t c o n c e p t i s C A N O N T_T

 

[xNuminousx]

Every element relies on mobility .-. Waterarms grapple is configurable you can literally disable it... Also t h a t c o n c e p t i s C A N O N T_T

The water arms grapple we see in Pk is a bit more op than what we saw in the show. In the show the user required some sort of ledge or poll of some sort yo grip onto but in MC you can grapple onto anything really.

 

[Madocean]

The water arms grapple we see in Pk is a bit more op than what we saw in the show. In the show the user required some sort of ledge or poll of some sort yo grip onto but in MC you can grapple onto anything really.

Yeah, but it's a matter of what's availible in arena. Most people dont throw a ton of poles in their arenas xD

 

[xNuminousx]

Yeah, but it's a matter of what's availible in arena. Most people dont throw a ton of poles in their arenas xD

But the fact is that Pk allows you to grapple in places that you shouldn't so there's no need for specific grappling areas.

 

[xNuminousx]

no reason to nerf grapple

Make it more accurate to the show at least.... Allowing it to grapple onto blocks that have TWO sides open. For instance, the ground has one 1 side of the block showing, so there's not leverage to grab onto. But if there were two sides of the block showing, like the edge of a wall or the side of a roof or a tree or something, then the grapple would be able to hook onto that and pull the user towards it. Right now the grapple is grabbing onto something that isn't there or maybe it's digging into the ground for a hole...

So first off theres actually n0 logical reason to remove this feature.

How is being jetted by water from a rose at the speed of light possible at all? When did we EVER see a waterbender move as fast as Surge Jet propels a waterbender in MC? If anything the velocity needs a huge nerf....

It's canon.

I COULD agree that it's canon, however the speed at which Surge propels you is unlike anything we saw in the show. Plus, extract GALLONS of water from a single rose/grass/tulip/anything really expect and ocean is not canon nor is it logical. Water sourcing needs a rework in pk.

By the laws of physics displayed in the show, it's OBVIOUSLY shown to be P O S S I B L E.

I agree water can push someone somewhere or pull someone, but again Surge jet is not accurate to the show.

but to remove it is waaay too drastic.

I don't think so. I think if Pk added more mobility options for Water it'd be fine. Plus, I'm sure without it someone could spice up the config a bit to make it more realistic. Like Mesk said:

configure waterwave to have 0 chargetime and use that as a replacement.

Alright so adressing the unidealistic notion that waterarms is a perfect substitute; that's so wrong .-. Surgejet is instant, it allows you to instantly return to source. This contrasted with arms; you have to get within CLOSE RANGE of a source and select it THEN scroll to grapple THEN use grapple .-.

So you're argument is that Water Arms grapple requires work where surge jet requires little to none so we should keep the effortless one for simplicity reasons? AKA: Let's keep it because it's OP and makes waterbenders lives easier... Firebenders were able to use sudden bursts of fire to keep from taking fall damage so let's remove fall damage from Fire too. That would make things easier and effortless for them.

That adds like 2 seconds to the process, btw while you do all that in the 2 seconds you were doing so the airbender that airsuctioned, twistered or airstreamed you onto land gets 3 hearts on you. Not to mention they suctioned you farther inland with suctionswipe. The airbender gets to take shots as you crawl back to source possibly killing you before you reach it. All because you couldn't surge...

I find this humorous and pretty insulting to waterbenders... I would agree if there is no water source around then water is pretty defenseless because Pk doesn't offer anything that would allow pk to bend without a source, unless you have bottles but those are sort of glitchy and undependable. But I play water often enough, and I'm smart enough, to grapple AWAY from the Airbender and then freeze them with Spear. While they're froze, and hopefully I've grappled myself near a water source, I can hope back on my Water spout and camp. I've never seen an airbender use these techniques successfully and when they've tried a waterbender was usually resourceful enough to make the best of a sticky situation. Waterbenders are supposed to be resourceful and in this situation you've said they were defenseless WHILE haveing their waterarms active.... Yea, they may take a few hearts of damage but the point isn't so that water is so overpowered you can't touch it... The point is them to be resourceful and figure out what to do quickly. Solution: Grapple away, freeze your opponent, return to water source, deal immense amounts of damage in the safety of your lake....

All because you couldn't surge...

Chances are if a waterbender let all this happen it was due to their lack of experience. I don't even have surge in my water binds anymore because I dislike it. I do just fine for myself.

Every element relies on mobility .-.

Maybe, but mobility isn't the point of water. The point is redirection of energy and resourcefulness. Surge jetting is the easy way out, an option waterbenders in the show didn't have. They may have had a similar option, but not one near as OP as we see in Pk.

Yeah, but it's a matter of what's availible in arena. Most people dont throw a ton of poles in their arenas xD

Maybe because they have no reason to make anything like this? If they did and players started demanding it I'm sure they'd add it because it'd be essential to Water. Plus, I see several arenas with potential grappling options (such as the side of mountains, trees, boulders, river sides, walls, etc) but no one uses them because A) They can't really, grapple is weird like that and B) The floor is the easiest option for them and allows them to jet away like a race car, as Mesk said.

 

[MeskenasBoii]

Every element relies on mobility .-. Waterarms grapple is configurable you can literally disable it... Also t h a t c o n c e p t i s C A N O N T_T

Badgermole can fly, so its canon and valid. Ok.

May I dare say earthbenders can bend trees? It's canon alright.

Numinous... bravo!

 

[MeskenasBoii]

I can agree on AirSuction just puts waterbender vulnerable by pulling them away. Although, I don't think leaving them to mobile is the way to counter it. Many, and many suggested Water Continuity concepts (puddles to appear after waterbend on overland or sneak-required constructs to shape form upon switching abilities), and I think that's the way to do it. Once we get that, waterbenders would be more encourage to use their bending far away from their pools and be less vulnerable.

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[MeskenasBoii]

Every element relies on mobility .-. Waterarms grapple is configurable you can literally disable it... Also t h a t c o n c e p t i s C A N O N T_T

In-game yes, but that wasn't the case in the show:
Airbenders were acrobatic/dodging clows for sure and that's how they were taught (Tenzin had set them up a military-alike climbing|jumping|running course.
Earthbenders are literally rocks: they almost don't move. Unless you're a probender, but that would be in small numbers that utilize the style outside of the arena on-screen.
Waterbenders: sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Still rarely happens, but a little often than of earthbender.
Firebender: kinda like waterbenders, but they are more of a trampoline-kind-of deal. They only sustain flight for some sort amount of time, unless the bending gets buffed (via sozin comet or avatarstate).
Chi blockers: same as airbenders.

 

[Madocean]

Make it more accurate to the show at least.... Allowing it to grapple onto blocks that have TWO sides open. For instance, the ground has one 1 side of the block showing, so there's not leverage to grab onto. But if there were two sides of the block showing, like the edge of a wall or the side of a roof or a tree or something, then the grapple would be able to hook onto that and pull the user towards it. Right now the grapple is grabbing onto something that isn't there or maybe it's digging into the ground for a hole...


How is being jetted by water from a rose at the speed of light possible at all? When did we EVER see a waterbender move as fast as Surge Jet propels a waterbender in MC? If anything the velocity needs a huge nerf....


I COULD agree that it's canon, however the speed at which Surge propels you is unlike anything we saw in the show. Plus, extract GALLONS of water from a single rose/grass/tulip/anything really expect and ocean is not canon nor is it logical. Water sourcing needs a rework in pk.


I agree water can push someone somewhere or pull someone, but again Surge jet is not accurate to the show.


I don't think so. I think if Pk added more mobility options for Water it'd be fine. Plus, I'm sure without it someone could spice up the config a bit to make it more realistic. Like Mesk said:



So you're argument is that Water Arms grapple requires work where surge jet requires little to none so we should keep the effortless one for simplicity reasons? AKA: Let's keep it because it's OP and makes waterbenders lives easier... Firebenders were able to use sudden bursts of fire to keep from taking fall damage so let's remove fall damage from Fire too. That would make things easier and effortless for them.

Uh, actually no element should experience fall the way fire does. I agree Also in NO WAY am i calling surgejet easy im calling it convenient lol. There are certain aspects of pvp that just shouldn't be relevant. Fire taking severe fall for one. Water being USELESS on land for two. Right now. Give me sourcing AIR or give me surgejet.

Another thing that you're missing is that surgejet has evolved over 5 years of plugin. It's a mechanic that you cant just throw away because "canon" or "I don't like it" is the reason actually describing your motivations. lol.

I find this humorous and pretty insulting to waterbenders... I would agree if there is no water source around then water is pretty defenseless because Pk doesn't offer anything that would allow pk to bend without a source, unless you have bottles but those are sort of glitchy and undependable. But I play water often enough, and I'm smart enough, to grapple AWAY from the Airbender and then freeze them with Spear. While they're froze, and hopefully I've grappled myself near a water source, I can hope back on my Water spout and camp. I've never seen an airbender use these techniques successfully and when they've tried a waterbender was usually resourceful enough to make the best of a sticky situation. Waterbenders are supposed to be resourceful and in this situation you've said they were defenseless WHILE haveing their waterarms active.... Yea, they may take a few hearts of damage but the point isn't so that water is so overpowered you can't touch it... The point is them to be resourceful and figure out what to do quickly. Solution: Grapple away, freeze your opponent, return to water source, deal immense amounts of damage in the safety of your lake....

Ugh this entire reply is insulting.... Okay first of all; Airbenders can literally JUMP out of spear freeze for one ._. Secondly; you can configure spear freeze to last literally one second, it's configured that way on both servers I main. Thirdly, you've never met a skilled airbender lol.... I know five of the best airbenders ever to grace the plugin. NONE of them would fall for your five step suicide attempt there lol. Yuki would simply dodge or jump out of not the first but BOTH spear attempts in ANY WAY they're presented and push you back onto land with A I R B L A S T. Killing you. Kyle would just AGAIN JUMP OUT OF THE FREEZE, suction you ALL THE WAY back into land and kill you while you scramble for a source. Git would literally kill you with airsuction alone....


Chances are if a waterbender let all this happen it was due to their lack of experience. I don't even have surge in my water binds anymore because I dislike it. I do just fine for myself.
..... k buddy..........


Maybe, but mobility isn't the point of water. The point is redirection of energy and resourcefulness. Surge jetting is the easy way out, an option waterbenders in the show didn't have. They may have had a similar option, but not one near as OP as we see in Pk.

Okay so this again is just insulting lol surgejet is in no way op. Water CANNOT fight any element that ISNT water on land as of right now. Surgejet is the only way to enable waterbenders to DEAL WITH THAT SITUATION. If you give me some sort of in air sourcing mechanic you can remove land surgejet, but until then your arguement is completely invalid.

Maybe because they have no reason to make anything like this? If they did and players started demanding it I'm sure they'd add it because it'd be essential to Water. Plus, I see several arenas with potential grappling options (such as the side of mountains, trees, boulders, river sides, walls, etc) but no one uses them because A) They can't really, grapple is weird like that and B) The floor is the easiest option for them and allows them to jet away like a race car, as Mesk said.

How do you think good airbenders or ESPECIALLY any level of earthender enjoys navigating TONS of trees which enables chi camping and fire camping meaning the terrain favors chi and fire to air and earth lol, all of this being what you'd need to provide grapple options viable for evasive manuevers.

I replied in the reply, to simulate you replying to 15 quotes INDIVIDUALLY rather than just giving them a slight prompt xD

U know when u quote someone 15 times in a reply ._.

Lol but you mentioned multiple times that surgejet isnt possible from such a tiny source. I already covered that in "I agree that source mechanics need improvement"

 

[MeskenasBoii]

Surgejet isn't canon, and there's no point in arguining If you don't provide evidence.

The Speed, the looks, the jet - aren't canon. We have WaterSpout's waterwave technique (which would need tweaking after jet is removed) for that. Waterwave was intented to transport the user from A to B point, while Surge intented to transports others.

The Improvent we could try to give is to allow waterbends travel on land with the IceWave combo. Like what Katara did, but of course it should require some downfalls. Mobility of that ability should be enhance when the user is in cold enviroment, aka. on snow (Tonraq vs Una!!!laq).

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[Madocean]

Surgejet isn't canon, and there's no point in arguining If you don't provide evidence.

The Speed, the looks, the jet - aren't canon. We have WaterSpout's waterwave technique (which would need tweaking after jet is removed) for that. Waterwave was intented to transport the user from A to B point, while Surge intented to transports others.

The Improvent we could try to give is to allow waterbends travel on land with the IceWave combo. Like what Katara did, but of course it should require some downfalls. Mobility of that ability should be enhance when the user is in cold enviroment, aka. on snow (Tonraq vs Una!!!laq).

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If surge can push an opponent. You can push yourself with it. it's that simple @+@
Also again I'm going to mention that water can't keep up with any of the other elements on land.... The land situation is like chi vs air over the endless abyss on a 20x20 floating island :I Either let water avoid it, or g i v e i t a w a y t o f i g h t.
Now that you mention the on land icewave thing; Make the icewave sourceable and you decrease water's land defecit. If that double manip addon thing ever came about it'd be settled completely.

 

[MeskenasBoii]

That's way I mention time from time (should change the original post to remind that tho) that other bendings arts need their mobility nerfed simutaniously with waterbending to make things realistic while keeping everything balanced. Earthsmash shouldn't simulate flight, firejet needs to just provide a jump boost, airblast source should be removed and have an nerfed alternative version called air jump.


What do you mean sourceable? It already is sourceable.

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[Madocean]

I agree, as long as all elements are balanced in parallel to create an even playing ground, sure, as long as it's not lacking enjoyment or at least the slight demand of skill.

Also with icewave, I mean you should be able to source the trail, also that the trail should remain for idk a second after you shift so the sourceability is worth somethingn. That way you can effectively fight on land. That would be my solution to the current meta, that way you dont have to change ALL elements and ALL their current metas, because right now air is really fun and the fire meta is so established it'd just hurt the plugin to change it completely. (Although I'd really like to see a fire rework)

 

[MeskenasBoii]

I agree on that. I would call it Water Continuity/Reusability. It should also be applied to Shield/Torrent/Octopus/Waterarms constructs.

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[Madocean]

I agree, as long as all elements are balanced in parallel to create an even playing ground, sure, as long as it's not lacking enjoyment or at least the slight demand of skill.

Also with icewave, I mean you should be able to source the trail, also that the trail should remain for idk a second after you shift so the sourceability is worth somethingn. That way you can effectively fight on land. That would be my solution to the current meta, that way you dont have to change ALL elements and ALL their current metas, because right now air is really fun and the fire meta is so established it'd just hurt the plugin to change it completely. (Although I'd really like to see a fire rework)

Reviewing your comment actually, I agree that fire should have aburst flight move, I'm gonna be suggesting a concept I have for one tonight, I'd love to hear your thoughts. As for earth and air, Earthsmash flight... It shouldn't be actual flight but I want to see it be like an elevated ground slide thing, like toph has displayed, maybe shockwave shaped, dimensioned like earthsmash, but with a 1 or 2 block trail to help it blend----------------------------^
I would like to keep airblast though, just less powerful, definitely with some kind of airjump, but airblast is an amazing move.

 

[Madocean]

I agree on that. I would call it Water Continuity/Reusability. It should also be applied to Shield/Torrent/Octopus/Waterarms constructs.

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Yeah that's one of the most important aspects of waterbending that still doesn't exist :T

 

[MeskenasBoii]

Yeah that's one of the most important aspects of waterbending that still doesn't exist :T

I hope they introduce it soon.

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