Debate: Should Self-SurgeJet work on Land?

[xNuminousx]

o_o

This is getting way out of hand lol....

Personally, I think Madocean is right. It probably was possible. But for an actual, physical bender to use it is impractical. Can you imagine being flung through the air so rapidly as Surge propels the bender in REAL life? At that speed at that certain velocity, can you imagine how your feet would react? They'd probably catch hold of the ground, which would as a result cause the top part of your body to catapult down towards the floor.


Imagine this ^ but at the speed of which surge pushes you. I don't think the argument is if it's possible or not, of course it is. The argument is in whether or not it's smart to use. You can mess with the config to set the surge push force a lesser number, if you choose to have it. But I think there are better modes of transportation for waterbenders that could be made. Madocean, even you have to admit the current, default surge push is way too fast. It may take "skill" to master but it pushes you unrealistically fast. Why would a bender propel themselves at that speed, unprotected, and chance breaking an ankle/leg/arm/anything?

Surge is a cheap mode of escape for an element that's not supposed to be based around quick modes of escape. I understand it may be fun, but for other benders who are trying to chase the waterbenders, it's not so fun. When a waterbender gets self surge, waterspout, AND water run, escape for them is just way to easy. Thus, ANY waterbender can make a quick escape. And believe me, I've seen my fair share of "quick escapes" by noob waterbenders. The self surge we currently have disrupts balance.

 

[MeskenasBoii]

Personally, I think Madocean is right. It probably was possible. But for an actual, physical bender to use it is impractical. Can you imagine being flung through the air so rapidly as Surge propels the bender in REAL life? At that speed at that certain velocity, can you imagine how your feet would react? They'd probably catch hold of the ground, which would as a result cause the top part of your body to catapult down towards the floor.

Yeah I had that in mind, but couldn't express it english words, so I didn't bother point. This can be stressed by my 3# (about the inaccurate looks of being pushed by a WALL). It would be like the moment when your standing in front of a door, and someone slams it inwards towards you. You would trip, not fling like in a canon as If your time in a circus act.

Chargetime is required, because waterbending ISN'T SUPPPOSE TO BE MOBILE ABILITY (except in water). Chargetime that balances it out.

 

[Madocean]

o_o

This is getting way out of hand lol....

Personally, I think Madocean is right. It probably was possible. But for an actual, physical bender to use it is impractical. Can you imagine being flung through the air so rapidly as Surge propels the bender in REAL life? At that speed at that certain velocity, can you imagine how your feet would react? They'd probably catch hold of the ground, which would as a result cause the top part of your body to catapult down towards the floor.

View attachment 2975
Imagine this ^ but at the speed of which surge pushes you. I don't think the argument is if it's possible or not, of course it is. The argument is in whether or not it's smart to use. You can mess with the config to set the surge push force a lesser number, if you choose to have it. But I think there are better modes of transportation for waterbenders that could be made. Madocean, even you have to admit the current, default surge push is way too fast. It may take "skill" to master but it pushes you unrealistically fast. Why would a bender propel themselves at that speed, unprotected, and chance breaking an ankle/leg/arm/anything?

Surge is a cheap mode of escape for an element that's not supposed to be based around quick modes of escape. I understand it may be fun, but for other benders who are trying to chase the waterbenders, it's not so fun. When a waterbender gets self surge, waterspout, AND water run, escape for them is just way to easy. Thus, ANY waterbender can make a quick escape. And believe me, I've seen my fair share of "quick escapes" by noob waterbenders. The self surge we currently have disrupts balance.

Okay so i'm glad Numi's here to moderate. Obviously you and I are too passionate and partisan by extension. Numi your point is valid. My solution is dampening it's effects on land rather than completely removing them, this way it's a more practical move. Another solution could be adding slowness/and or damage (although falldamage already exists) after a high impact landing, an injury mechanic, or some kind of roll mechanic to back this, this way it's not an INSTANT means of escape. In water though I think it should stay the same with a couple slight modifications: It would be a protrusion rather than a breakaway regarding surge's position relative to its source.

 

[Madocean]

Yeah I had that in mind, but couldn't express it english words, so I didn't bother point. This can be stressed by my 3# (about the inaccurate looks of being pushed by a WALL). It would be like the moment when your standing in front of a door, and someone slams it inwards towards you. You would trip, not fling like in a canon as If your time in a circus act.

Chargetime is required, because waterbending ISN'T SUPPPOSE TO BE MOBILE ABILITY (except in water). Chargetime that balances it out.

I agree about the wall, although the wall that exists can undoubtedly push someone. It's as thick as the person and much wider.

 

[MeskenasBoii]

(although falldamage already exists)

Waterbenders are only immune to ice fall damage.

I agree about the wall, although the wall that exists can undoubtedly push someone. It's as thick as the person and much wider.

It still looks ugly and unaccurate from the show. However, in no way I'm objecting that earthsmash is accurate (it doesn't look nothing like of the rockslide that earthbenders slided). Not sure about firejet though (but I can presume its accurate).

 

[MeskenasBoii]

Surge is a cheap mode of escape for an element that's not supposed to be based around quick modes of escape. I understand it may be fun, but for other benders who are trying to chase the waterbenders, it's not so fun. When a waterbender gets self surge, waterspout, AND water run, escape for them is just way to easy. Thus, ANY waterbender can make a quick escape. And believe me, I've seen my fair share of "quick escapes" by noob waterbenders. The self surge we currently have disrupts balance.

Preach. Again, how is "vertical waterspout" (from now how, that's how I'm call it rather waterwave cuz its confusing) bad? Waterwave has a chargetime, but that's what keeps it balance and waterbenders in the cartoon always had to charge it.

 

[MeskenasBoii]

Another solution could be adding slowness/and or damage (although falldamage already exists) after a high impact landing, an injury mechanic, or some kind of roll mechanic to back this, this way it's not an INSTANT means of escape.

That's.... weird. Well yeah, its realistic, but... IDK. the roll just feels off random. And again, fall damage is set on for waterbenders, except they're immune to getting plummet to ice. So the injury mechanic is already there.

 

[xNuminousx]

Maybe have something a bit similar to this? Instead of having the wall VERTICALLY push you, the wall then starts to turn horizontal and you "ride" the horizontal wall. It'd be too similar to WaterWave so there'd need to be something different about it.

 

[MeskenasBoii]

Maybe have something a bit similar to this? Instead of having the wall VERTICALLY push you, the wall then starts to turn horizontal and you "ride" the horizontal wall. It'd be too similar to WaterWave so there'd need to be something different about it.

That could be a revamped IceWave combo. Is anyone willing to make a suggestion for it.

P.S. That's more of a ramp than a wall.

 

[Madocean]

Waterbenders are only immune to ice fall damage.

It still looks ugly and unaccurate from the show. However, in no way I'm objecting that earthsmash is accurate (it doesn't look nothing like of the rockslide that earthbenders slided). Not sure about firejet though (but I can presume its accurate).

Yeah I agree with both of those statements. Here's firejet displayed in the show:

Spoiler: FireJet Gif

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/avatar/images/c/c2/Iroh_pursues_biplanes.png/revision/latest?cb=20121107090523

 

[MeskenasBoii]

Surge
Surge shouldn't push the user. Instead, it should create grap before and end after it aproaches the user in a one block distance between the user (Like the scene how Katara soaked Toph without getting herself wet whilst standing in the waves way). Surge should not ignore the user while (s)he is in water however.

Icewave.
Icewave should the alternative for the current Self-Surge-Jet technique. While performing its activation, If you left click with phasechange and holding sneak after switching from the waterwave, it should icewave straight away without chargetime at the speed of the current Surge Distance.

Icewave should only go straight as a downside for using quick-pace mobility move (for BALANCE sake!). Here's how it should loook like:

What do you guys think? It looks better than Surge imo and it should be apart of a combo. I still prefer it having chargetime though. Also, I don't think icewave should freeze someone (we already have too many freezing moves).

 

[Madocean]

Preach. Again, how is "vertical waterspout" (from now how, that's how I'm call it rather waterwave cuz its confusing) bad? Waterwave has a chargetime, but that's what keeps it balance and waterbenders in the cartoon always had to charge it.

I was really confused about what you meant there, wave is mostly used horizontally while spout is always vertical. I think you mixed up the axes Waterwave isn't bad at all, it adds more strategy to the game. It simply lacks the qualities that surge provides. Regarding 'Charge'. Charge doesn't really fit, I'd say a better word to describe it is 'initiate' like katara in that icewave extension there, she doesn't really charge anything. She selects source, selects destination and pushes herself having executed those two protocols. There's of course the matter of the water reaching her too (which is present in both jet and wave already).
@Mesk^

View attachment 2978
Maybe have something a bit similar to this? Instead of having the wall VERTICALLY push you, the wall then starts to turn horizontal and you "ride" the horizontal wall. It'd be too similar to WaterWave so there'd need to be something different about it.

So, that's kinda what i mean in the protrusion thing on water. The width/Height can be individually configurable (in its rectangular form, while if you want to keep the geyser sort of look that wave has, you can use diameter. So I wouldn't worry about size and such. I don't see much of a problem in it bearing resemblance to waterwave, just because like 80% of water mobility in the show looks like wave with slight variation.

 

[MeskenasBoii]

Can we lock this thread now (@Easte). I think we figure this out and we can all agree surge animation looks weird. Have we established that? Yes or No?

@xNuminousx and @Madocean, what do you guys think - should this be lock ? P.S. I made a new suggestion: http://projectkorra.com/threads/surge-shouldnt-jet-the-user-icewave-the-alternative.6301/

 

[MeskenasBoii]

I was really confused about what you meant there, wave is mostly used horizontally while spout is always vertical. I think you mixed up the axes Waterwave isn't bad at all, it adds more strategy to the game. It simply lacks the qualities that surge provides. Regarding 'Charge'. Charge doesn't really fit, I'd say a better word to describe it is 'initiate' like katara in that icewave extension there, she doesn't really charge anything. She selects source, selects destination and pushes herself having executed those two protocols. There's of course the matter of the water reaching her too (which is present in both jet and wave already).
@Mesk^

Don't recall if the wave does have a warm-up time before it can be used. By chargetime, I mean like how Shockwave requires one. I may be wrong, or wave probably has 0 zero chargetime.

 

[Madocean]

What do you guys think? It looks better than Surge imo and it should be apart of a combo. I still prefer it having chargetime though. Also, I don't think icewave should freeze someone (we already have too many freezing moves).

I mean, I think there should be a move that pushes you that isn't waterwave, but I don't see why that isn't a good use for surge either. Maybe surge should keep its current function, receiving a revamp actually making it less pheasable for pushing others. However, to take the place of its current functionality you could make a move like the one you just described. Also freezing mechanics should be changed greatly, however imo icewave should be the only move with such a significant freeze since its the hardest to execute.

 

[Madocean]

Don't recall if the wave does have a warm-up time before it can be used. By chargetime, I mean like how Shockwave requires one. I may be wrong, or wave probably has 0 zero chargetime.

So, for shockwave, Korra displayed a no charge version of it while escaping Tarrlok's prison unit. If I can find a gif I'll update this post. The only move I've really seen have a charge in the show is firecomet displayed by Iroh in the final fight.

 

[MeskenasBoii]

Sure, but I think Surge must have exclusive config value option for self and other as a suffix named [push factor]. Similary, how Tornado has different knockback value for mobs and others. Self could also include its boolean chargetime.

 

[MeskenasBoii]

So, for shockwave, Korra displayed a no charge version of it while escaping Tarrlok's prison unit. If I can find a gif I'll update this post. The only move I've really seen have a charge in the show is firecomet displayed by Iroh in the final fight.

I meant I don't recall the in game ability having chargetime, not the cartoon.

Of course Korra wasn't charging, but in the game that would be op (cuz of its huge AoE hitbox and unpredictability).

 

[Madocean]

Sure, but I think Surge must have exclusive config value option for self and other as a suffix named [push factor]. Similary, how Tornado has different knockback value for mobs and others. Self could also include its boolean chargetime.

Exactly

I meant I don't recall the in game ability having chargetime, not the cartoon.

Of course Korra wasn't charging, but in the game that would be op (cuz of its huge AoE hitbox and unpredictability).

See but shockwave isn't really useful in PK due to its charge, theres just 4 other moves that outweigh its usefulness. I honestly think it would be better served as a long cd short range combo. Maybe 2-5 inputs so it's not instantaneous, or even just a delay. Right now tho it's predictable and slow in comparison to the other moves. Both smash and shockwave have a blatant charge indicator and high chargetimes, it's impossible not to see it coming.

But just to clarify theres definitely a necessity for shockwave not being instantaneous. That would definitely be op.

 

[MeskenasBoii]

• 2? I can only count three: earthsmash and earthblast. Unless your including custom abilities, then that's how of the question (this is the area to discuss about stock abilities, because they are the only abilities that PK can provide support/changes from the feedback section, so custom moves aren't taken to the account).
• cd? does that mean cooldown as an abbrevation.
• Short rage? I think that would literally make it even more useless.
• Input?
• Depends on the circumstandes. If fallthreehold is enable, plummeting can trigger, and especally when your not seeing the earthbending slamming to the ground - it is unpredictable.